About "Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen"

[jeriendhal]

I’m not buying it.



Er, I mean I’m going to buy it (it’s Bujold after all), but I’m not sure I buy the premise. Part of which is that Miles “I’ve always been good with personnel” Vorkosigan, who loved his mother and unabashedly worshipped the Admiral Count His Father Aral Vorkosigan, failed to notice that his father was carrying on an affair with Jole, an officer handsome enough that Miles felt a twinge of jealously even when he was completely distracted in the aftermath of the events of Kyril Island.

WHUT?

More to the point, I can’t believe that Cordelia, given her Betan attitudes towards sex, would keep this from Miles. If for no other reason than the fact that Old Vor conservatives, looking for any wedge to break up Aral’s Progressives, would absolutely pounce on this if word got out. Damn it, somewhere along the way she would have absolutely had to have given Miles warning, if only a simple “If anyone comes up to you and states that Aral is having an affair behind my back, I want you to know it’s not true. I know all about, he has my consent, and I support him and love him, always. Now get your head out of your ass and remember the wider picture.”

I suppose what’s getting to me is the out of nowhere nature of the relationship. Dsudis has an excellent summary of Jole’s appearances and mentions in the Vorkosiverse, which aren’t many. Two brief appearances at the beginning and end of The Vor Game, and off screen mention at the end of Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance, and (the big one, really) a mention of him being one of Aral’s pallbearers at the end of Cryoburn.

That’s it.

From there we have a book that introduces him as a full character in his own right and Aral’s long time lover.

Don’t buy it. At all. If there had been more set up. More rumors. Miles finally having an ah-ha! moment in a previous book, much like he did with Simon and Alys’ relationship, I might accept it better.

Also it’s entirely possible that I misread something about the announcement and Miles knew perfectly well what was going on much earlier than this book, so one of the plots is not going to be his gobsmacked surprise. I mean on a good day he’s a hyperactive egomaniac who’s defense mechanism against a planet that dearly wants to kill him is to draw everyone he knows into his plots like a sawed off black hole.

But I’d rather not think he’s an oblivious asshole.

Comments

[avanti-90.livejournal.com]

After reading Dira's analysis, it does seem to me that the author has been setting this up for a while, and rather subtly. That said, I do think - and I've been saying it in more detail on DW - that the only reason so many people (including me!) are enthusiastically greeting this announcement is that Dira has already acclimatized us to the idea via her fic. It seems like a very strange authorial choice to introduce this relationship after Aral's dead.

Another reason I'm happy about it is that I rather desperately wanted the Vorkosiverse to do something different and game-changing with the characters, and this, while not exactly my ideal way of doing it, is certainly one interesting way. If it had been another Miles Has Galactic Adventures or tropey romantic comedy book where nothing serious actually changes, I'd have given up on the series. But I'll read this. I'm curious.

As for Miles, I think a large part of it is that Miles simply wasn't around. For the years in which this relationship was apparently happening, Miles and Aral were almost always on separate planets, so it doesn't really surprise me that he didn't know.

It does surprise me, though, that Cordelia and Aral would never tell him, especially since it seems to be a long and close relationship, not a short fling. I'd be interested to see Cordelia's explanation for that.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the After Aral is Dead bit smacks a bit of JKR's post-death announcement that Dumbledore was gay.

I'll agree that the universe needs a bit of a shake up, and this looks like it might be it. If Cordelia has managed to hold onto the Vicereineship (sp) of Sergyar, the Conservatives must be tied up in knots over a woman having that much political power. And when Barrayaran tradition meet Cordelia, Tradition almost always yields.

And Miles' near constant absence probably contributed to his not knowing about it early on, but given his political tuned senses once he was promoted to Imperial Auditor, not knowing about it after that seems less likely.

[avanti-90.livejournal.com]

But at that point Aral and Cordelia were on Sergyar, and I think Miles saw very little of them? He was probably well aware of Jole as a close family friend, and it was just that no one ever told him there was more...

...which is ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. It means Aral was in a poly relationship for decades, he had someone he loved deeply, and he never told Miles. We see Aral and Miles having such a close and respectful relationship in canon, Aral would have wanted to share this important part of his life with his son, and apparently he never felt comfortable or secure enough in their relationship to do so.

And Miles only finds out after he's dead and it's too late for them to come to terms over it.

That's believable, and that's awful. Imagine how Miles would feel when he finally finds out.

I actually kind of like it.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Well as a plot it's going to be a very big reorientation in Miles' worldview. "My dad lied to me" is not a phrase he's used to uttering.

Unfortunately, given Miles' discomfort around same sex matters (such as Bel's passes at him) Aral was probably completely justified in keeping this from his boy's delicate ears.

[sraun]

I'll agree that the affair pretty much happened when Miles wasn't around much.

Personally, I have no doubt that if Miles had asked Aral & Cordelia if Aral was sleeping with Oliver, they would have been very upfront about it.

Miles not asking would have been evidence of one of two things - either they really were doing a good job of keeping the affair a secret, or Miles had a huge blind spot. Herself claims the latter was the truth - do that's certainly the Doylist side! The Holmesian side is that Cordelia & Aral knew Miles well enough to know what to not rub his nose in, and that they did know his blind spots.

BTW, per Herself the Red Queen in the title is NOT Cordelia. Looks like this a write-up on the reference.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

I suspect it's Barrayar that will be evolving, again.

[avanti-90.livejournal.com]

I had a theory that the Red Queen would be a Sergyaran Queen Butter Bug. I admit, I wasn't really expecting it to be true... :D

[seawasp]

Nah, the Dumbledore thing was set up more clearly, and -- moreover -- JKR had a vastly better reason to NOT say anything until after publication. LMB's publishing in an adult field; at worst having Aral implied, and later revealed, to be having a gay affair is going to raise eyebrows and get a few people whining. Doing the same thing in what people are classifying (however incorrectly, in my view) as a children's book is a much more touchy subject, even today; the controversy would have been more intense eight years ago (holy crap, Deathly Hallows was released eight years ago!). Understandably she probably didn't want to get into the argument her publisher would have had, even if -- given her financial clout -- nothing would have stopped the publication anyway.

[resonant.livejournal.com]

As a point of reference, my mom and I have never discussed my grandmother's boyfriend. And I have tried not thinking too much about them being other than friends, even after finding that we both use the same lube.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

@_@ That must have been an interesting revelation.

Reminds of finding out my 84 year old mother was reading through Fifty Shades of Grey. And then saying, "I already knew all about this stuff."

[xinef.livejournal.com]

LOL. I can imagine that being an umm interesting conversation.

[sraun]

In the Q&A, Lois said a couple of things that I think are relevant - one was that this relationship has been canon in her mind for years, but she never had any in universe reason to mention it. She apparently has dropped a few hints - it'll be interesting to mine the books for them.

The other was that Miles does have his blind spots - and his parent's relationship was one of them. He was raised on the monogamous Aral & Cordelia, and Aral & Cordelia & Oliver put a lot of work into keeping word of the relationship from getting out - she didn't care, but they all had some idea of what the political implications would be, and they didn't want anything to get out.

One of the complaints raised was Cordelia's comment to Vordarian - "He was bisexual, he's monogamous now." Her explanation - Cordelia was still new to Barrayar, dealing with someone that she didn't trust - of course she'd use a simple comeback, rather than start to explain her opinions & beliefs on sexuality, especially in regards to her relationship with Aral.

What was fun was the fact that Aral & Oliver got together while Cordelia was on a trip home to Beta Colony - Oliver was afraid he was going to be dealing with an aggrieved spouse, and got a very willing co-conspirator instead!

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Snickers I'm wonder if Aral expected that reaction, or had been worried sick.

Doylist: On a more practical front, I can see why Lois kept this under her hat until now. Given Jim Baen's reportedly lukewarm acceptance of Ethan of Athos she probably didn't want to push Aral's sexuality to the front of the series until it was established, and could fit into one of her plots.

[sraun]

Given my impression of Aral, he was rather looking forward to Oliver's world-rewrite when Cordelia got back. In other words, why would Aral ruin the fun?

reportedly lukewarm acceptance

As I heard it, 'I'll publish anything you write except a sequel to San Francisco Planet'. IIRC, Herself commented that it was helpful to have a contract-breaker in her back pocket, if she ever needed it.

[(Anonymous)]

"What was fun was the fact that Aral & Oliver got together while Cordelia was on a trip home to Beta Colony - Oliver was afraid he was going to be dealing with an aggrieved spouse, and got a very willing co-conspirator instead!"

WHAT? You don't have sex with someone else without talking before with your partner about it. That's not poly, that's cheating.

[(Anonymous)]

I've also been in two minds about Aral cheating on Cordelia, except that he hasn't. Or at least, I don't think so. Right at the beginning of the book, Cordelia says:
...I go off to visit my mother on Beta Colony leaving him in no worse straits than another of his unrequited silent crushes.
This means she knew about Jole before she left, and with her Betan ways, i can imagine her egging him on and Aral being all Barayar about not acting. I imagine she was surprised coming back, but on the fact something had happened.
As for him taking advantage of the position, remember that Barrayar, especially then, is more like 17th and 18th century societies than our modern one. Absolutely no reason they should have any kind of taboos on chain-of-command msigivngs (outside it being homosexual). In fact, I would see this more as a problem for Cordelia, except she'd probably ignore those issues due to knowing Aral amd that he would never create problems/take revenge.

On the note of Miles not catching on, given the small amount of time he would spend with them and the egocentric he was, I have absolutely no problem believing he had no idea.

[silver-chipmunk.livejournal.com]

Hi, found this discussion while I was googling around for information on Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen. I always need more Bujold fan friends, so I'm going to friend you if that's OK.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

No worries. Thank you!

[losseniaiel.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I'm having problems coming to terms with this twist. I'd have loved to see a happy same-sex or poly relationship become canon, but not this one. Aral is my favourite character and I've shipped Aral/Cordelia madly since about five pages into Shards, so it's a major reorientation of my view of the whole series. I accept that it's been LMB's head canon for years, but it feels so out of the blue for me. I particularly dislike the relationship starting while Cordelia isn't even there. I know and understand (at least on an intellectual, if not an emotional level) that poly relationships can be as respectful and loving as any other kind of relationships, but it strikes a sour note for me for Aral (who otherwise is one of the most single-mindedly loyal men out there) to start a new relationship after 20+ years of marriage while his wife isn't even on planet to talk to. I'd also like to see a story which is emotionally more complex than Cordelia not caring because she's Betan. The other thing that I'm more than a little worried about is how this plays into/perpetuates the gnarly old trope that bi people can't be satisfied with a single partner.

I really want to like this threesome. I've read all Dira's Aral/Jole fanfic this week, but so far it's just made me weepy (it's been a long and stressful few months in my private life, so finding these spoilers now probably comes at a really bad time). At the moment, if we saw Miles getting really upset in the book, I'd totally sympathise with him.

tl;dr, especially for a total stranger commenting, I'm sure: I'd rather it was Simon/Alys/Padma.

Make me like this threesome, people? Please?

[(Anonymous)]

"but it strikes a sour note for me for Aral to start a new relationship after 20+ years of marriage while his wife isn't even on planet to talk to."

Believe me, dude, you're not the only one. Having sex with someone else before talking with your partner is cheating not poly.

Is this book for real??

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Yep. I think at this point Lois is basically writing fanfic in her own universe, if that's possible.

[(Anonymous)]

Sorry to butt in! I've been looking around for information on this book and I was glad to find someone who wasn't very keen on the plot, either. My main problem though is that apparently this relationship started when Jole was a subordinate of Aral's?

I wish I saw more discussion about this aspect, because power imbalance in relationships like that, especially in a place like the military or any other powerful organization, makes me uneasy. I had trouble imagining Aral maintaning a sexual relationship with his immediate secretary - wouldn't he feel that it was very improper? It didn't seem very Aral-esque to me... Do you have an opinion?

[journeywoman.livejournal.com]

Another stranger here butting in! This is one of the things that bothered me the most: Aral went after a subordinate. So very wrong. And for Cordelia to mention and dismiss it in the same sentence as "well, Betans would have disapproved of the difference on age and rank"--that really didn't sit well with me. Come on, a traditional culture like the Barrayaran military hierarchy would never have thought it was okay for an admiral/regent to have an affair with a junior officer.

[(Anonymous)]

I've also been in two minds about Aral cheating on Cordelia, except that he hasn't. Or at least, I don't think so. Right at the beginning of the book, Cordelia says:
...I go off to visit my mother on Beta Colony leaving him in no worse straits than another of his unrequited silent crushes.
This means she knew about Jole before she left, and with her Betan ways, i can imagine her egging him on and Aral being all Barayar about not acting. I imagine she was surprised coming back, but on the fact something had happened.
As for him taking advantage of the position, remember that Barrayar, especially then, is more like 17th and 18th century societies than our modern one. Absolutely no reason they should have any kind of taboos on chain-of-command msigivngs (outside it being homosexual). In fact, I would see this more as a problem for Cordelia, except she'd probably ignore those issues due to knowing Aral amd that he would never create problems/take revenge.

On the note of Miles not catching on, given the small amount of time he would spend with them and the egocentric he was, I have absolutely no problem believing he had no idea.

Previous quote said he was monogamous

[(Anonymous)]

“One corner of his mouth crooked up, then the quirk vanished in a thoughtful pursing of his lips. "He's bisexual, you know." He took a delicate sip of his wine.
"Was bisexual," she corrected absently, looking fondly across the room. "Now he's monogamous."
Vordarian choked, sputtering.”
― Lois McMaster Bujold, Barrayar

I loved that quote from Cordelia and now it's like it meant nothing. I'm really sad about this. I didn't mind the bisexuality, I mind that he wasn't monogamous.